Got "caught up" in the riot? Boo-hoo. Cry me a river.
When convicted Stanley Cup rioter Emmanuel Alviar was being taken away by B.C. Sheriffs after being given a 30-day jail sentence for participating in the Stanley Cup riot he muttered, “This is crazy.”
Such was his contrition at his stupidity for being involved with the rest of the witless wonders on that horrible night nearly a year ago. He actually thought he would get away with his manifestly stupid behaviour because he pled guilty. Perhaps he needed better counsel.
What is crazy is that Provincial Court Judge Reg Harris only gave him one month despite the Crown calling for a sentence of four months. Most of the rest of us think more was in order.
Alviar’s case has been touted as a measuring stick for cases brought against rioters with no previous criminal records. If so, then the calls for justice post-riot will not be served.
Let me be frank. In Canada, any sentence given by any judge ends up as only two thirds of the time sentenced — at best. Most convicts are given parole at the one-third point in their sentence. But, they are actually considered for “early release” at the one-sixth point in their sentence by a corrections system that actually believes its job is to empty the prisons of its inhabitants.
In Alviar’s case, technically, he could be released by the hug-a-thug system after five days in custody. That would be the one-sixth point.
And that is only if we consider the 30-day sentence as suitable accountability for Alviar’s actions on that horrible night filled with images of outrageous actions by hundreds of our youth.
I don’t.
These idiots caused millions of dollars of damage. People like Alviar joined in because of the so-called “mob mentality” in which he was caught up.
Boo-hoo. Cry me a river.
They need to be held accountable and despite the comments of Judge Harris, who, I might add, likely actually believed he was being tough in sentencing, a few days in jail is little more than a slap on the wrist.
I have long said it is tough to go to jail in British Columbia regardless of what you do. This decision underlines that statement in view of all the howls of outrage immediately post-riot by all of our leaders and a pliant media.
If a puppy pees on my carpet, I correct the behaviour by giving the puppy a meaningful consequence for the bad behaviour. Emphasis on meaningful.
This is meaningless.
- post by Leo Knight
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Lots of laws, but no real punishment. A man cut off someone’s head in a bus and was eating the body and he’s out in two years. We should have a “guilty but insane” verdict instead of “Not guilty by reason of insanity.”
In Canada most of the crime that occurs goes unreported because most of us realize the futility and hassle of making a report. Nowadays, it just gets all your particulars into a police database that the Chinese are hacking into or can be leaked to anyone for a price just like your supposed confidential medical records.
Of the crimes reported, few are solved. Of those solved, few are arrested. Of those arrested, few are charged. Of those charged, few are convicted of anything let alone what they were charged with. Of those convicted, few are punished. Of those punished, few are punished much.
Is it any wonder a riot as we had occurred? All these people KNOW that nothing serious will happen to them. The best defence lawyers out there are the Crown prosecutors who simply rationalize literally everything away.
The changes need to be at the Crown Prosecutor’s offices and the laws changed to take away discretion from judges after convictions. This is something we should spend money on instead of wasting time and resources on plastic bag bans.
I’d like to see some new legislation giving officers qualified immunity from lawsuits. The Supreme Court in Canada has ruled police are fair game without restrictions, so there is a big disincentive for an officer to use any force and you saw what happened – they stood around and watched most of the riot.
All of the shortcomings in our system could be addressed with a little common sense and leadership. We’re completely lacking in both and we’re about to put the NDP in charge.
Someone please post a little encouragement for me.
thanks for linking to an oil corporation website…………..troll!!!!! don’t feed the troll!!!
lets look at both sides. leo knight i commend your journalism because although most article i disagree, and are largely police puff, i still read……………..lets give people immunity from police brutality tho, and check out the law Indiana just had signed into law. “allowing residents to use deadly force against public servants, including law enforcement officers, who unlawfully enter their homes”
I wonder how much money is being spent chasing down these clowns and how many different ways it could be much better spent…
Would you feel the same way if it was your property that was trashed or you were trapped at your work place? It will be money well spent if it sends a message about consequences that these young people never got as part of their education.
I’m sure not, but in the big picture we’re spending a lot of money and I just wonder if it couldn’t be more wisely spent.
re: “If a puppy pees on my carpet, I correct the behaviour by giving the puppy a meaningful consequence for the bad behaviour.”
Yes, but it is only because the puppy cannot clean your carpet or buy you a new one that you would resort to a “meaningful consequence” meaning creating a “trauma association” to change behavior.
Unlike puppies, humans are capable of cleaning up pee, or broken glass. We can’t lay the burden of restitution on the puppy, because the puppy cannot grasp the concept of property rights. Humans on the other hand, can be saddled with debt and can be taught the responsibility of restitution through this process of making what you’ve destroyed whole again.
Are there any civil suits moving forward requiring people in the riot to pay damages to the businesses effected? Not to mention covering the policing and legal costs.
Thought of The Day
“E…vasive
N…uts
T…rendy
R…iot
A…mateurs
P…athetic
M…aladroit
E…ssential
N…arcissistic
T…otally”
Not taking anything away from the jerk in the picture, I have one mention to make.
Nothing like this would have happened, if the City Hall’s highly paid Vision hacks Ballem & Aufochs would have done their homework and jobs.
Together with Robertson they should have read the 1994 Riot Report, and should have in the least taken the appropriate measures. Nothing was done. Nothing!
On the contrary, the drunken, highly agitated teens and/or young adults, budding thugs, were invited downtown, into a foreseeable predicament.
With no Police presence, with no Plan, with no Chu, with no Vision for the events to come.
Typical.
I would call that kind of behavior… ENTRAPMENT by stupidity, incompetence, putz-ism!
“In criminal law, ENTRAPMENT is conduct by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit.”
Yet, all three culprits, Ballem, Chu, Robertson got to keep their jobs, and to add insult to injury they’ve got raises instead!
Unbelievable!
There…
I agree, one month, slapped down to a few days is a farce, costing the taxpayers through the nose.
This thug should have been locked for some time in a labor camp instead. Or should have been forced to work unpaid for a year in any of the businesses he vandalized.
As far as this story goes, we’ve been violated twice, once in 2008, and again in 2011. Vancouver was Rohypnoled once too many. Now this…
We live in Vancouver and this keeps us busy.
I thought it was significant that you mentionned labour camps (must be an American since you called them “labor camps”. Smacks of authoritarian regimes. Lock them up the gulag or re-education camps.
But it fits. You refuse to accept that the citizens fo this City by a substantial majority re-elected Mayor Robertson and his team. That is how a democracy works and your “vision” is anti-democratic. An authoritarian Valhalla with labour camps.
Clearly mistakes were made by the Mayor and Chief of Police (Vision hack? spare me), the LCB, BC Transit, the CBC, and others. Of course it’s more nuanced that you want to believe but nuance is not something you understand. Most importantly, the boss, Vancouver’s electorate has accepted that mistakes were made and decided to keep the Mayor and his team in power. How that is a “violation’ I don’t know but in your addled mind, democracy appears to be a violation, an affront to your refined NPA sensibilities.
In our federal system, Canadians put Harper in power and gave him a majority. You probably love it; it makes me nearly ill. However, that is a result I have to accept; it is not a “violation”. Just like in Vancouver.
We live in Vancouver and have to police the NPA nutbars and that keeps us busy.
Dear Waltyss,
Here, we meet again.
You must be one of Mayor’s aides, which one is it? Quinlan? Magee? Any of those two would do. You, Waltyss, come in here like a jerk and accuse others of “throwing insults” but you have the biggest mouth of them all, my friend!
These punks did what they did last year, there is plenty of evidence, with no remorse whatsoever, and when they are given a lenient sentence, a joke of a sentence really, all they have to say is … “This is crazy”? Like, they did not see that coming, out of their real TV lives… yeah, right.
Burning a police car might look like fun to you, vandalizing the city, goooood, oh so Hollyhock of you.
And I see you have soft spot for GR.
You are not man enough to polish Glissando’s shoes, buddy, that’s why you seem to use his words to express yourself.
The punk in the story got the same sentence that this incompetent Mayor got, which amounts to nothing. Don’t tell me that Vancouver voters elected him , cause you are eating bull, a mere 16-18% of them did, because the rest of Vancouver voters chose to stay away from that parody of an election!
That’s what happens when millions of offshore money laundered through American charities reach their destination and buys elections across the border. Vancouver got the leadership they deserve!
The Mayor is a total phony and he knows it. His only achievement to date is wasting over people’s money! The tax payer money his Vision Council wasted on his numerous pet projects, who btw amounts to tens of millions of dollars!
Now you can respond back on City Hall time, money well spent… again.
If you are due for a proctological exam, let me know. I’ll do it for you… free of charge Waltyss!
Dr. Richard Unger MD (Ret)
Ungry:
We’ve established arthero-sclerosis and dementia. I am also beginning to suspect that you start to write after you have had a few too many cheap brandies.
However, whatever the issue, you are one sick puppy!
Dear Glissando,
Sorry but that Waltyss, had it coming… again.
Good points all around, imagine my surprise when I opened the 24 Hours today and read Daniel Fontaine article on the riots, a bit more detailed, but the message absolutely identical.
So unless you and Daniel are not the same person, if you include me in the group we are at least three people with commonsense and a filtering system left intact, in this city.
The fact that Robertson and his gang got reelected again after the city was trashed under their watch, tells me that the city have become a place for idiots from all around the world. Ignorant population that all day long are thumbing their lives through texting, tweeting and watching TV. Greta future for Vancouver, BC, Canada…
Nice Day ahead,
Dr. Richard Unger MD (Ret)
There is such a thing a joint and several liability. When multiple people are responsible, you can sue any of them for the damage caused by all of them. There’s a deep pocket somewhere among the rioters and that’s where you start he lawsuits.
I’ve said it before – except in the most serious cases – ie assault, the riot cases should have been handled as civil lawsuits by the city and/or businesses impacted. Slap someone with a $50,000 judgement for participating in the destruction of a $100k police vehicle and the message will get around.
Why should anyone get a pass on lighting a police car on fire? Paying for damages is a given. That’s what anyone is expected to do. It’s like some of these people that brag about not going to jail before. You’re not supposed to go to jail. It’s not a bragging point if you haven’t.
Joint and several liability. Some of those rioters own homes, cars, have jobs, get a tax return, have savings accounts and have insurance policies. They are all going to get sued anyway. It’s not so difficult to do and it’s easier after they are convicted in criminal court because you don’t have to prove guilt, only damages. The standard for admissibility of video evidence is different too, so some of those people who the Crown didn’t prosecute can be sued too.
Any of the minors rioting — well guess what? Mommy and Daddy are in for a big surprise because they are on the hook for their little darlings actions in the civil arena. I’m sure they have assets to go after.
They lawyers should be going after this stuff methodically and I have no doubt they will. I hope the lawyers are as relentless going after the rioters as the rioters relentlessly destroyed the City.
They will reap what they have sown. Each of the rioters can be on the hook for the damages of any of them or all of them. That civil law is powerful if you know what you are doing.
Karla,
As always, the one group that will prevail at the end of the day will be the lawyers.
Le sigh.
The lawyers are forcing rioters to pay for the damages they are liable for to reimburse the victims. They don’t work for free. I think most affected businesses will make a claim with their own insurer and then the insurance company will pay for the lawyer to go after the responsible parties to reimburse the insurance company. In the old days before codified laws, suing for reimbursement like this was one of the few things you could go to court for, so the tradition of this practice goes as far back as any kind on the books now. There are plenty of good lawyers fighting the good fight. You never hear about them in the news. Like the police, lawyers are judged by their worst examples.
And at the end of the day due to the insane rates of lawyers will end up being a larger value than the damages and everyone will pay for it through their insurance.
I maintain my le sigh.
The riots are still going to be a banner day for the redisculously high paid leaches of society.
Gregor Robertson, Penny Ballem , Jimmy Chu…
“The riots are still going to be a banner day for the redisculously high paid leaches of society.”
Well said Ron, well said, very well said…
The initial reaction to the sentence may be that it seems light On further reflection (not a commodity in supply with this Vic Toews fan club), this was a kid without a criminal record who turned himself in, who pleaded guilty and who has apologized for his conduct.
If someone like that gets a month, the courts will now be clogged up because you have just eliminated the thought that anyone else is going to either turn themselves in or plead guilty. Trials in each case; time consuming motions.
You are the same group that is constantly bellyaching about the cost of government (except when it comes to jails even though we have some of the highest incarceration rates of any democratic country and more on the way without anything to show for it). And we do this to satisfy Knight’s and Karla’s and Glissy’s lust for vengeance.
There were and are many more creative ways to show public denunciation and allow them to pay their debt to society at a lower cost to society than turning them into criminals by sending them off to jail.
Unfortunately the knuckledraggers on this site have no imagination to curtail their lust for vengeance.
We live in Vancouver and keeping the Vic Toews fanclub under control keeps us busy.
His act of turning himself in and pleading guilty would only be remarkable if there wasn’t video of him doing the crime and his face wasn’t circulated on a wanted poster.
I think it is justice rather than vengeance to see someone properly punished for crimes and held liable for damages to victims. When that doesn’t happen, it’s an injustice to everyone in society. All of us are victims when there is justice. Mercy is something the guilty ask for. Justice is for the innocent victims.
Karla: I like the line; “All of us are victims when there is justice.” whatever it means. In any event, I do not disagree that society deserves justice, we simply disagree that the jail time imposed in this case achieves justice or vengeance at a very high price.
I know you find this hard to believe, but reasonable people can disagree.
Definitely screwed that up. I’m sure the more intelligent among us had no trouble figuring out I meant that when there is no justice all of us are victims. Hope that clears up your confusion.
Do you know if he’s paid back any of the damages? You’ve got a strange sense of justice. I can’t see any reason to give the guy a pass. What was your reason again?
When I was a kid, I had a healthy fear of my parents. I was brought up to have respect for them, my teachers, other adults, people’s property etc.
Had I ever done anything even remotely close to what these ‘kids’ did, forget the police, my dad would have kicked my ass end up over my head.
Parents today have lead their little darlings to believe that they are untouchable, and it shows.
Perhaps a wake up call both for kids and their parents. You have failed as members of society.
I have zero sympathy for these ‘pukes’. Aside from jail time, I would truly like to see restitution attached. A minimum of $5,000 and working upwards depending on the level of participation/destruction.
If they can afford to pay a lawyer to try to weasel their way out of their ‘responsibilities’ they can afford pay back society and those damaged by their actions.
People not only lost property, they lost wages and in cases were brutalized.
To use an excuse like ‘I got caught up in the mob mentality’ is just moronic.
Time to grow up and face your actions.
“Parents today have lead their little darlings to believe that they are untouchable, and it shows.
Perhaps a wake up call both for kids and their parents. You have failed as members of society.”
You know the crime rate for youth is dropping right Max?
The reality is that good kids come from parents who don’t kick their children’s asses (emotionally or physically) and that people (especially young people) make bad decisions in mob situations. One need only attend an Army and Navy shoe sale to see that foolishness and aggression in certain situations is hardly the preserve of young adult males.
A statistical snapshot of youth crime stats:
http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/res/cp/res/ssyr-eng.aspx
The sad reality is that all those rioters behaved exactly as one would expect when people engage in a months long festival of violence and consumerism and then have their fetish object snatched from them by outsiders.
Seems the police ‘get it’ even if anonymous Internet experts aren’t clear on the concept:
“We see people behave in ways they never normally would once the group mentality takes over. People feel safe and anonymous within a group and this poses an enormous challenge for police.”
http://www.chilliwacktimes.com/news/Chilliwack+grad+party+gets+hand/6801850/story.html#ixzz1yG0xWUpa
“To use an excuse like ‘I got caught up in the mob mentality’ is just moronic.”
You are talking about Gregor Robertson here, right?
Also on a different front,errr, Waltyss, LOL, using a Glissando quote is proof that you are weasel not able to regurgitate anything on your own.
A bit of creativity please, Wuss!
“We live in Vancouver and someone needs to put Waltyss out of his misery, because he’s keeping us busy.”
Sorry, Glissy!
Higgins, it’s called satire. Sorry you don’t understand.
Boy, you and Ungry and Karla and Brilliant: all so angry and hateful. i feel sorry for you I really do. Particularly when it descends even further to threats to kill someone. that makes you an even sicker puppy than Unger.
We live in Vancouver and we are kept busy defending against the nutbar haters on City Caucus.
Wow? Is that so? Satire. You wouldn’t know what satire is if it grew as wart on your ass.
BTW, nobody is threatening you, you moron, that’s … satire!
Anything else, wuss?
Higgins:
Well at least you don’t keep the hatred bottled up.
Kindly explain, if you would how “We live in Vancouver and someone needs to put Waltyss out of his misery, because he’s keeping us busy.” is not a threat. If you are trying to suggest that that sentence is satire then it is not me who does not understand the meaning of satire.
We live in Vancouver and protecting ourselves from the haters threats keeps us busy.
Waltyss, waltyss… tz, tz, how we like to spin and spin… geeee
You are nothing but pseudo name on a web site, a url id … attacking every post that’s not praising Vision…your pals. My suggestion was really simple… to block you out of here so we can have a conversation. We really like you go so much that we let you go! Try Vancouver Observer who probably sent you here in the first place. They do not let Wusses like you comment like this on their Awarded site. Not here’s what we call democracy . What’s there Wuss?
Umm, Higgins,
Did you just suggest that this site should block Waltyss from commenting and then follow that with a comment about how this site is a Democracy?
Really?
Yes Boohoo,
I want the owners of this site to give people like Waltyss some time off to reconsider his behavior, who IMHO is ridiculing and attacking one of their best contributors here at City Caucus. And he is not only attacking to the left and to the right (btw I am not the only one with this opinion in here, how come I rarely have anything to say to anybody else, even you, boohoo are a Lite user of bad language compared to this guy)
Also, because I want this Site to get the CJF AWARD next year for being as democratic as Vancouver Observer is! Nothing more, nothing less. Why do you think VO’s comment column is so skinny, because they are on a diet? I’ve been edited out from there, several times, as it’s all about the Mayor, Vision, Solomon, friends, how pretty they are how smart they are, how wise and ‘knows it all’ they are, how big their readership is, how they break all the important stories, LOL, then they come up with “Spare some change, readers?” Ha, Ha, Ha !
So yes boohoo, the Democracy called and they want a vote, I’m a Nay you are probably a Yay., 1 – 1 , so we annulled our votes. Let’s see what others have to say, ok?
This would also be my last post on … Waltyss.
Higgins,
I agree the vitriol on this site has ramped up considerably recently from all sides. Funny that you mention my language, I would challenge you to find any comments on here where my language came remotely close to that of waltyss or the good doctor. I’m sure you won’t. The last time I said anything untoward (by calling the rioters douchebags) I was raked over the coals for such an inappropriate comment. Here we have constant insults and nary a peep from most, but whatever, that’s democracy.
Speaking of, if you want this site to win some meaningless award about democracy, I would suggest not starting with banning people’s opinions.
As for the VO, I can’t say I’ve read it very much, I’ve never commented there either, so not much of a reference point for me.
Higgins: Here is your idea of a conversation from the Frances Bula site. Ms. Bula had announced that Councillor Reimer was in hospital with an undiclosed illness. The opening line is from the poster before:
It’s a persons health, I think we’re all decent enough not to play politics on that, aren’t we?
2Higgins // Jun 14, 2012 at 3:14 pm
Finally some uplifting news coming out of this pathetic City Hall Vision plantation.
I know, I know not nice to talk like that, blah, blah, yada, yada, boo-hoo…
After all she “did” for this city we should be thankful? LOL!
Thanks for this Frances. It made my day!
3Frances Bula // Jun 14, 2012 at 3:18 pm
@Paul. I’m guessing it was phrased that way because, in Andrea’s last round of ill health, reporters picked up on it when they emailed her and got an automated note with an update on her condition, which they then put on the radio. As you can see from the comment after yours, apparently someone’s health is still seen as a topic to play politics with.
Sorry Higgins, ban me all you want so you can exercise your gestapo side and leave anyone who disagrees with you off this site so you can spew venom until everything is covered in your disgusting spit.
I suspect that you are an embarassment even to the NPA and to Glissy. You certainly are to anyone with a molecule of decency.
I know this is pointless but here goes:
I put forward a position which I tried to argue logically. You may disagree and fair enough,. Put your arguments forward. Let’s debate.
Higgins, your idea of debate is to call anyone who don’t like names. Hate to tell you but that is not debate. So, i have no desire for further exchange with you.
Just one final point: after inciting to violence, you have offered a pretty lame explanation of your post. I doubt anyone would interpret putting someone out of their misery as blocking them from a website. While your position makes no sense, I am prepared to accept your explanation rather than going to the police and having them check the postings to find out who you are and have a littel chat with your sick self.
We live in Vancouver and we keep busy trying to keep the sick puppies from hurting each other.
ROTFLMAO! This is comedy at its best.
After trashing every poster one by one, Waltyss feels threaten by… language! Let me rephrase that, the anonymous person that goes by the name of Waltyss is feeling the heat. LMAO! Unless this was a Cosa Nostra site and Mike /Daniel were… “made” men, I don’t see how this could work out, really funny. How many names have you called me Waltyss? Exactly. Now then may I find out who you really are? I’d like to show you my appreciation.
Ned, tell me how many names I have called you? I have looked and I don’t see any where I have called you a name. At the same time, you might want to count how many times you have called me names. In fact as I reviewed my posts to see if I had called you names, I noticed that you had not once offered some reasoned opinion. All you do is call names and laterally, join Higgins in his call to violence.
What is there to respond to? I suspect that even on this site, your posts cause cringes among all those except your fellow name callers.
I know you don’t answer questions but maybe just this once.
And Ned, asking someone else to put me out of my misery is not just words. It is a call to someone to commit some act of violence on me.
You Vancouver policos fighting each other makes it hard for me to remember which side are the whackjobs.
It explains a lot of why things happen in that city (who am I kidding, this region, province, country, world).
I don’t mind the whackiness, and I am getting used to the nastiness. I can get whacky myself from time to time and it is good to have a pin stuck in. And the really nasty people tend to hurt their own positions and discredit the policies they advocate.
Let’s avoind the threats of physical violence though. There have been several directed at me and my family in the comments here. I am getting more sympathy for people who hide their identities! But I think the real solution is for people to use their actual identities. I will give GR a pass as s/he has a well developed persona used across many sites and may have some good reason for the ‘pen’ name.
Well there’s more reasons than simply wanting to toss barbs from the dark for not putting ones name out there. Threats of physical violence being a good example!
Perhaps some more rigourous application of the decorum standards would be a more adequate response.
You people are becoming really really ridiculous!
I read that twice and it sounds exactly like it sounds…
, at most a dark joke. You people should get a life!
LOL!!!!!
“may have some good reason for the ‘pen’ name.”
I don’t think some animals should be more equal than others. What would take real stones would be for G.R. to emerge from his/her anonymity and say the same things.
The reality is that GR is probably a sock puppet for a person we’d immediately connect to NPA. Every sentence written by this persona should be suspect if we are going to demand accountability and consequences for actions, as seems to be the case judging by the comments in this thread.
Waltsyss-take your tired little martyr routine somewhere it might be appreciated like the Vancouver Observer. Everybody here is onto you.
Sadly this thread drift has not eclipsed the fact the current administration has refused to accept any responsibility for their collective actions in regard to the riot on June 15 2011.
I suppose that would be why all their supporters are so hyper active trying to diffuse any dissenting opinions.
The historical record of 1994 is very well known and the violent youth of the region knew it, so why did the civic administration ignore it?
Expecting many personal attacks in response, but awaiting a reasonable apology while not holding my breath.