Investment in public infrastructure requires public's willingness to pay
It’s always interesting to watch people try and twist what we at the Canadian Taxpayers Federation do, in order to create some sort of boogeyman to attack.
The latest effort comes from a former Vancouver City Councillor, Gordon Price, who blogged a bizarre and inaccurate rant against me, the CTF, and anyone who dares to want to hold property tax increases to the rate of inflation (I guess that includes Surrey Mayor Dianne Watts, judging by her budget numbers).
It is full of inaccuracies and false assumptions about the CTF and my own views on property taxes. So let’s do a little Price rollback:
Price says: “As municipal budgetary deadlines approach, expect to hear a lot from the Canadian Taxpayers Federation – in particular, spokesperson Jordan Bateman, an ex-Langley Township councillor whose profession is now the de-legitimization of government through a relentless attack on taxes.”
The truth: I suspect I will be interviewed quite a bit about property tax increases, as it is an issue of great concern to many families and seniors across the Province. But neither the CTF nor myself look to “de-legitimize” government—we identify pockets of government waste at all levels, highlight alternative plans, do research and put issues on to taxpayers’ radar. Government is something a civilized society must have, but it works best when held accountable—not when given carte blanche to tax and spend as they see fit.
Price says: “The CTF position: municipal budgets should not go up beyond the rate of inflation. Which means, essentially, no increase in the provision of ‘public goods’ – those services and structures which we fund collectively – and over time, a diminishment in the role and presence of government in our lives, accompanied by the assumption that the private sector can do it better.”
The truth: I have never said that it’s inflation or bust. But I do strongly believe that any increase or project that carries the tax burden above the rate of inflation should be subject to a public referendum or significant consultation process to ensure the taxpayers are on board. This comes partly from my own personal political experiences in Langley, where we made decisions on public safety that should have been vetted by the public through referendum, to ensure they were on board for the collective good we perceived the community needed. If these collective goods Price writes about are so wonderful, there should be no problem having them stand up to the scrutiny of democracy.
That said, the CTF (and I) believe that government should NOT have a central role in our lives. But that does not mean government should have NO role.
Price says: “Trout Lake followed Sunset, and Creekside, and Hillcrest, and Kensington – each a stunning addition, immediately embraced by the surrounding community – the people who pay for them. Happily. Because they got something so tangibly better for the additional dollars they were taxed.”
The truth: Then these series of buildings (if they truly are the cause of tax increases beyond inflation—and not raises for staffers) should have had no problem sailing through a referendum.
Price says: “What Jordan implies, of course, is that because they are collective goods, not provided by the private-sector, they are somehow illegitimate or excessive. And he’s probably right: these community centres could have been done cheaper, or not at all. After all, do we really need them?”
The truth: Find me somewhere I’ve ever said anything like that. I never have—and I’ve written literally millions of words on public affairs over the past 16 years. But to turn a blind eye to overregulation and waste within government is a terrible recipe for abuse of power. Thank goodness for the CTF, the press, whistleblowers, and for intelligent, honest citizens who keep an eye on politicians and government workers at all levels.
Price says: “What Jordan and the CTF don’t want to acknowledge is the collective benefits that result from the way Canadians are prepared to tax themselves – the benefits which often cannot be measured, at least in dollars.”
The truth: Great. Prove it by a referendum, not a lengthy blog post. Imagine a regular online or phone vote on priorities—it wouldn’t have to be costly, and it would better connect taxpayers to city hall, allowing all citizens to give their input.
Price says: “The U.S. has had 40 years of people like Jordan repeating the mantra of ’No More Taxes,’ of private-sector superiority, of de-regulation. They have levered the inefficiences (sic) of government and resentment of its employees to support a generalized attack in order to constrain and de-fund government at every opportunity. And the consequences are now evident: profound and rising inequality. Not, I think, a coincidence.”
The truth: And Europe is chock full of countries that have gone the other way, expecting government to provide absolutely everything for them—and there are massive debts, riots, incredible distress and quite possible complete collapse. That’s why the CTF doesn’t propose tax freezes or cuts at the municipal level—just the rate of inflation, with public votes on going beyond that.
I believe in balancing priorities, in making the best possible use of every tax dollar, in helping stretched-thin taxpayers make ends meet, and in holding government to account for what they spend.
Price is generally a smart guy, and the poor research in this rant is beneath his usual standards. I’m perfectly fine having philosophical differences with him on issues—but he should at least present my opinions fairly.
- post by Jordan Bateman, originally published on the CTF blog.
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We should thank our lucky stars every day for having a group like the CTF,at least someone is holding their feet to the fire.Price has a social engineering agenda and most certainly doesnt want the unwashed masses to see behind the curtain,just shut up because they know whats good for us.Screw the cost and buy the cat another canary.
Prove it by a referendum? We do that in Vancouver every 3 years with a vote on the Capital Plan. Each election the Capital Plan passes with a huge majority of the voters in favour.
This silly debate comes up all the time. When something you don’t want is proposed, the argument is to vote on that specific thing. When something you do want comes up, the argument is that the election was the vote.
It is an imperfect system, but I would have to go with the election was the vote. I have serious issues with decisions being made at the federal level and would like to vote on individual items…but, that’s democracy. It ain’t perfect.
Democracy is like two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner.
Exactly!
Price has consumed a large amount of the progressive koolaid and is not one to see other points of view.
Er, precisely. That the Canadian Taxpayer Federation is unaware of this really…makes one wonder.
Also…
And Europe is chock full of countries that have gone the other way, expecting government to provide absolutely everything for them—and there are massive debts, riots, incredible distress and quite possible complete collapse.
Europe is full of many different countries that have many different policies and levels of social spending. Some are in crisis currently, some including countries that have well developed social programs like Sweden, are not.
The average tax rate in Sweden is 57.77 percent plus they have a 25 percent VAT. http://www.taxrates.cc/html/sweden-tax-rates.html I like the tax rates in the British Virgin Islands.There are riots in the streets in most EU counties right now and they will come to Sweden too.Its already starting in the US now and it will be here soon after.
A friend of mine who has a business in Greece was telling me how expensive it is to have employees. Medical & dental are mandatory and that alone works out to roughly $350/month Canadian.
Wales, where the boyfriend is from – back in 2009, 770,000 unemployed 18 – 25 year olds. Lots of gang and crime issues due to unemployment in that age group.
Funny, recently I was reading an article in the Mail or Guardian, where the UK govt said they would ask or implement that people who had been on the dole for X years, do 30 hours of week in volunteer work or lose their benefits.
The number of people that stated they would give up their benefits before doing volunteer work was staggering. For me, that speaks to how hard they are looking for work.
Max its so bad in the EU now that Italy passed a law that says you can only withdraw $1000 dollars from your own accounts at one time.They have set up border checks at the Swiss border with cash sniffing dogs,not the kind of thing you will hear on the MSM in this country.Some US towns are so broke they laid off their entire police departments yet we have posters here that think the CTF is the enemy,all I can do is shake my head.Last night I was pricing property in Tonga and the south pacific and it looks pretty good to me.These people will bankrupt this city then sell it off to cover the debt,but thats just part of their agenda.And people think im the crazy one,go figure.
Remember this http://www.straight.com/article-438696/vancouver/debate-emerges-over-servicing-citys-debt Dont worry be happy. Interest rates are at a historic low,” Louis told the Georgia Straight in a phone interview. “If interest rates were to go up by even one percent in real terms, that would add approximately 25 percent—one-quarter—to the debt servicing. It begins to very quickly crowd out operating expenses that are not capital in nature.”
The Thought of The Night
“Facebook, Facebook on the Stock,
Who’s The Crook on our Block?”
In Europe, the EU aka Eunuch Union, wants to impose grave precedents on numerous independent states; they want these states to alter their own Constitutions in order to better serve the Union… LOL!
And, who’s behind all this? You guessed…or not, the big Banking Corporations, the International Loan Sharks, headed by the Head Crook of them all, the International Monetary Fund.
In essence the idea is simple, force different countries, the ones more susceptible to become financial troublemakers, to accept all the shortcomings from their own bad governments, corrupt politicians, corporate fraud, misappropriation of public funds or banking disasters, at face value, as the home base/ template for future transfer of private debt incurred… to the general public, making in other words, whole countries, to become indebted for generations to come, to the big Banking Jackals.
From Private Mismanaged & Bankrupted Businesses to the Backs of the Unsuspecting Public.
Financial slavery, Twenty-first Century style.
The Destruction of the Middle Class have begun, all right!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ormc47x34U
All they need now is to make sure that the assets can be transferred through predicted default; you lost your job, or your job was off-shored, or you got sick… bam, the next thing you know that personal line of credit you took from your personal banker will make your family and your kid’s kids, the “property” of the Corporation.
… it was transpired that the biggest BooBoo in the “social media” is going to go public, I’m talking about the Facebook – I Ponzi O!
Wow!
Dunno, is it only me, that thinks that this social media portal is the biggest joke played on millions and millions of people/ investors around the world? Valued at 100 Billions of Dollars… say some. Really?
It could become interesting only if you are one of those owners of ground floor shares. The only product this company delivers is ‘unlimited amount of ways’ of how to waste your time, all while making your whole personal data available to the biggest bidder.
This is the instrument used to keep hordes of people around the globe… occupied, and… not working!
Good for the entertainment credits though, in case you need them.
Why did I bring this angle in here?
Simply because, this is what I think… forget about CTF, what it does or it doesn’t, when the shit will hit the ceiling in this country, and it will hit, right after will hit in the US, you’ll not have too worry much re your taxes, as you’d probably be worrying on how to get a paying job.
It started already in Europe. It will cross the Atlantic, it will cross the Pacific too, circumventing the globe, like satellite debris.
Why don’t you… fill the rest of the story, now!?
And meanwhile, don’t forget to update your Facebook account…
Hey, that will keep you occupied!
We live in Vancouver and this keeps us busy.
I think GR you would appreciate this old cut. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dranqFntNgo Who do… these people think they are.And guess who has the chair now at the EU.
Did I say to the CTF, thank you so much for trying to keep them honest.Keep up the good work.
Thanks gman,
That clip was a beaut!
I am familiar with Nigel outbursts and I applaud them!
FYI, yesterday 25 out of 27 European states,signed a preliminary… listen to this, it’s called a “Budgetary Enforcement Pact”, a super wicked proposal put forward by Germany.
UK and the Checks said to EU… “Up Yours!”
And for good measure, I may add.
Gr-eetings!
Ooops,
“Czechs” not “Checks”!
This one definitely goes to Jordan.
Gordon Price’s rant about “de-legitimizing” government was way over the top.
Good to see you weigh in on this topic, spartikus. Perhaps you would share with us your calculation that showed an average City of Vancouver employee earned about as much as an entire Vancouver family whose taxes pay their salary. Chris Keam doesn’t think COV workers compensation is out of line and your calculation might cause him to reconsider.
My suggestion is that you not be particularly concerned with what Gordon Price says. He was an ineffective councilor and now once again he is drawing a good salary from the public purse.. Has he ever had to meet a payroll?
Jordan, 2012: “I do strongly believe that any increase or project that carries the tax burden above the rate of inflation should be subject to a public referendum or significant consultation process to ensure the taxpayers are on board.”
Jordan, 2008: “I am committed to keeping taxes as low as possible. But we also owe it to Langley’s children to build the infrastructure that will keep them safe and healthy and to improve public safety. We must balance both the present and future needs of the Township.”
Gordon: 2012: “[There are] collective benefits that result from the way Canadians are prepared to tax themselves – the benefits which often cannot be measured, at least in dollars. We pay more taxes because we get more value for a collective good. Ourselves. Our community.
I call it a “tie” between Gordon in 2012 and Jordan in 2008. 2012 Jordan a distant third.
Both authors fail to distinguish between capital and operating costs and it is an important distinction. Capital costs reflect expenditures that are going to tangibly benefit future taxpayers and in the case of long lived assets, can result in nasty surprises when they need to be replaced. BC Hydro and water infrastructure are good examples where inflation means increased costs to replace the same capacity resulting in an immediate step up in costs.
And you were not quite correct when you stated we vote on a capital plan every 3 years. We actually vote to approve issuing debt which is less than the capital plan. In 2010 we spent $298 million on capital and the vote in 2008 totalled $222 million for the 3 years ending 2011. (spartikus was not aware of this really… makes one wonder)
“If these collective goods Price writes about are so wonderful, there should be no problem having them stand up to the scrutiny of democracy.”
A naive statement at best, but if one truly believed this then they would also (IMO) have to believe that lobby groups are unnecessary and actually detrimental to fostering civil debate between voters, in that the promote a position rather than a dispassionate appraisal. When you look more deeply at the issue of democratic decision-making it becomes pretty clear that organizations such as the CTF are part of the problem, not the solution.